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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:11 pm 
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catbear wrote:
HouseBuyer wrote:
catbear wrote:
Priti Patel says the threat of starvation in Ireland should be used as leverage to go back to Brussels.

Do millions have to starve in Britain for them to finally understand how millions starved in Ireland under direct London rule?

Even for a Tory politician, I didn't think a statement could be possibly true. I had to Google it to make sure.

It's gormless for sure, but it is the same uninterrupted Westminster sovereignty that induced starvation in Ireland that prosecutes Brexit now. Phil Hogan's reply cuts to the heart of it.
Quote:
EU commissioner for agriculture Phil Hogan has criticised a Tory MP’s threat to use possible post-Brexit food shortages in Ireland as leverage to secure a better deal, saying it would lead to “the starvation of the British people”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/eco ... -1.3723610

If all trade was stopped with brexit its the brits that would starve. But hey, thats their call. We will both freeze though. maybe we can have our own Norway plus plus plus slap dash


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:31 am 
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Location: Tullamore
HouseBuyer wrote:
catbear wrote:
Priti Patel says the threat of starvation in Ireland should be used as leverage to go back to Brussels.

Do millions have to starve in Britain for them to finally understand how millions starved in Ireland under direct London rule?

Even for a Tory politician, I didn't think a statement could be possibly true. I had to Google it to make sure.

In the real world though, Ireland is the 2nd most food secure country in the world.

I too didn't believe that was the substance of it, but here it is - I looked for for a source that I though wouldn't be a mouthpiece for some view or other, initially picking https://truckerworld.uk/2018/12/priti-p ... -backstop/, but settling on MSN (somebody has to read it sometime):
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/p ... ar-BBQDd8z
Quote:
“This paper appears to show the government were well aware Ireland will face significant issues in a no-deal scenario,” Priti Patel, who was International Development Secretary until last year, told the Times.

“Why hasn’t this point been pressed home during the negotiations? There is still time to go back to Brussels and get a better deal.”

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3602
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
BBC podcast
Will Brexit lead to the pulling apart of countries within the European Union?
27 minutes of interesting debate on what’s next for Europe with speakers from Warsaw and Brussels.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswk10


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:27 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
I too didn't believe that was the substance of it, but here it is - I looked for for a source that I though wouldn't be a mouthpiece for some view or other, initially picking https://truckerworld.uk/2018/12/priti-p ... -backstop/, but settling on MSN (somebody has to read it sometime):
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/p ... ar-BBQDd8z
Quote:
“This paper appears to show the government were well aware Ireland will face significant issues in a no-deal scenario,” Priti Patel, who was International Development Secretary until last year, told the Times.

“Why hasn’t this point been pressed home during the negotiations? There is still time to go back to Brussels and get a better deal.”


The optics that I get from this is that there is a possible danger to food security in Ireland.
The Irish government will have no objection to letting Irish people and small businesses suffer because we do live in a time here in Ireland Inc where the lines in government management has been to DO AS YOUR TOLD

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:24 am 
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Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Posts: 806
The conspiracisy theorists are coming out of the woodwork...


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:20 am 
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taipeir wrote:
The conspiracisy theorists are coming out of the woodwork...


No. There's no conspiracy here.
This is all business as usual for 'The Great and The Good" of Irish Government.
They follow the line set by higher authority.
They can disagree for a while to temper and manipulate public mood but then they toe the line, if necessary changing laws to suit.
Many real examples of same in recent years.

Much as though we were/are an outpost of Britain, we are and will remain an even greater outpost of Europe.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Posts: 806
So Ireland is better off going out on its own trading with Iceland then ?

Instead of mumbling tell us how you can make Ireland more independent and prosperous than it is already ?

Make an effort .....Details...Specifics.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:00 pm 
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taipeir wrote:
The conspiracisy theorists are coming out of the woodwork...

Here's an interesting one for you,

How we will be discussing the similarities between the break up of the soviet union in December 1991 and the break up of the EU in (pick a date in the next 3 - 5 years).
Remember how solid the SU looked in 1985, it was expected to last for decades.

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"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
"To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated": Elon Musk


Last edited by dolanbaker on Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:25 pm 
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taipeir wrote:
So Ireland is better off going out on its own trading with Iceland then ?

Instead of mumbling tell us how you can make Ireland more independent and prosperous than it is already ?

Make an effort .....Details...Specifics.


I think you (and others) are missing much of the point of what's brewing right across Europe at this stage. Discussion encompassing GDP and figures and growth projections simply won't cut it anymore.

In the case of Ireland, when we were 'poorer' people could generally afford their own homes close to extended family networks (think affordable childcare), usually on one income. In much of the country people could leave their doors unlocked. Suicide was uncommon and most people spoke the same language as their neighbors. Kids generally wandered freely and safely wherever they wanted. Further, like it or loathe it, there was a spiritual aspect to life that provided many/most people with a sense of meaning as well as a collective identity...something that crass materialism of either a right or left variety quite clearly does not.

Undoubtedly some people's lives were worse, especially those whose lifestyles or life choices caused them to fall beyond the narrower/stricter social mores of the day. However, I'd guess that much of the discontent we are witnessing currently is borne of a sense that people's basic quality of life, despite material and technological advances, has quite simply deteriorated....probably moreso in other European states than in Ireland thus far, but its definitely in the post.

In essence, modernity itself appears to be in the dock and I'm guessing that requests or demands to identify a materialist agenda that may be negotiated and compromised around simply doesn't even begin to address what is a reaction to a broad cultural malaise that has been half a century in the making.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:20 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
taipeir wrote:
The conspiracisy theorists are coming out of the woodwork...

Here's an interesting one for you,

How we will be discussing the similarities between the break up of the soviet union in December 1991 and the break up of the EU in (pick a date in the next 3 - 5 years).
Remember how solid the SU looked in 1985, it was expected to last for decades.

The former was held together by force, the latter is a voluntary union, as exemplified by a member leaving.

It's not our fault the UKs exit is a shambles. They simply didn't have a plan for leaving before they pulled the trigger on what I believe will instigate the demerging of the UK.

Interestingly the UK's exit actually tips the EU more in favour of the smaller nations of the union.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Posts: 3695
Location: Bogtrotterland!
The current (soon to be rejected) Brexit deal has a "Hotel California" clause in it, so the union isn't that voluntary.
The second Brexit deal will need some real imagination if it is going to be accepted.

_________________
"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
"To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated": Elon Musk


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Sep 2, 2018
Posts: 18
dolanbaker wrote:
The current (soon to be rejected) Brexit deal has a "Hotel California" clause in it, so the union isn't that voluntary.
The second Brexit deal will need some real imagination if it is going to be accepted.


Let's be clear the UK can leave the EU, pay no further funds to the EU, not guarantee the rights of EU citizens resident in the UK and erect a border with Ireland if it wants to. However, there are anticipated deleterious consequences to that choice and accordingly the current UK Government has chosen not to pursue it.

In the case of the UK's land border with Ireland, the UK Government has committed to leaving it without new infrastructure.

The Withdrawal Agreement allows for no border infrastructure if
a) there is a future trade deal sufficient to obviate it, or
b) there is a technological solution, or
c) Northern Ireland remains in the requisite parts of the Single Market and Customs Union required to obviate a border.

The UK requested, and the EU acquiesced with certain caveats, that the entire UK could also remain in a Temporary Customs Union with the EU to minimise distruption for intra-UK trade.

From Tony Connelly's Brexit blog on RTÉ

"Although the idea [of a Temporary Customs Union] was the brainchild of Olly Robbins, Theresa May was instantly enthusiastic. In fact, senior members of her team had been talking about a UK-wide customs solution for months, in terms that are remarkably similar to those which have ended up in the final Withdrawal Agreement.

"It came out of a meeting many, many months ago," recalls one source who was present at the meeting,

"There was a whole bunch of people in the room [including Jeremy Heywood, the late Cabinet Secretary]. This is what the prime minister wants to do, they were told. You would have all the benefits of the customs union without any of the downsides".

If there is a Hotel California aspect to the Withdrawal Agreement; it's because the UK Government has built the hotel and checked in.

Source
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-co ... ckstop-uk/


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31839
Location: Tullamore
dolanbaker wrote:
The current (soon to be rejected) Brexit deal has a "Hotel California" clause in it, so the union isn't that voluntary.
The second Brexit deal will need some real imagination if it is going to be accepted.

The Hotel California clause is as a result of a treaty the UK entered in willingly with a nation that is remaining in the EU. If it is that easy for the UK to dismiss treaties of any sort, they are an unreliable partner in any future treaty. IMO, that's at the heart of the Brexit agreement - a new relationship with the EU must acknowledge the obligations and complexities that exist between the UK and the EU.

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:02 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Apr 9, 2014
Posts: 2119
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
taipeir wrote:
So Ireland is better off going out on its own trading with Iceland then ?

Instead of mumbling tell us how you can make Ireland more independent and prosperous than it is already ?

Make an effort .....Details...Specifics.


I think you (and others) are missing much of the point of what's brewing right across Europe at this stage. Discussion encompassing GDP and figures and growth projections simply won't cut it anymore.

In the case of Ireland, when we were 'poorer' people could generally afford their own homes close to extended family networks (think affordable childcare), usually on one income. In much of the country people could leave their doors unlocked. Suicide was uncommon and most people spoke the same language as their neighbors. Kids generally wandered freely and safely wherever they wanted. Further, like it or loathe it, there was a spiritual aspect to life that provided many/most people with a sense of meaning as well as a collective identity...something that crass materialism of either a right or left variety quite clearly does not.

Undoubtedly some people's lives were worse, especially those whose lifestyles or life choices caused them to fall beyond the narrower/stricter social mores of the day. However, I'd guess that much of the discontent we are witnessing currently is borne of a sense that people's basic quality of life, despite material and technological advances, has quite simply deteriorated....probably moreso in other European states than in Ireland thus far, but its definitely in the post.

In essence, modernity itself appears to be in the dock and I'm guessing that requests or demands to identify a materialist agenda that may be negotiated and compromised around simply doesn't even begin to address what is a reaction to a broad cultural malaise that has been half a century in the making.

I take it you don’t remember the 80’s :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 3695
Location: Bogtrotterland!
yoganmahew wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
The current (soon to be rejected) Brexit deal has a "Hotel California" clause in it, so the union isn't that voluntary.
The second Brexit deal will need some real imagination if it is going to be accepted.

The Hotel California clause is as a result of a treaty the UK entered in willingly with a nation that is remaining in the EU. If it is that easy for the UK to dismiss treaties of any sort, they are an unreliable partner in any future treaty. IMO, that's at the heart of the Brexit agreement - a new relationship with the EU must acknowledge the obligations and complexities that exist between the UK and the EU.

It's more to do with the UK having obligations to both NI & Rep of Ireland that are incompatible with the EU and one of the key reasons both countries joined at the same time.

_________________
"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
"To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated": Elon Musk


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