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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:36 am 
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"12 years","Equitable title", "Ben Gilroy", "Tiger reborn" :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:24 am 
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But they agreed to leave back in May....?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.3480606

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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:56 am 
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a quote from this Irish times article...

Quote:
During the hearing, the judge said comments allegedly posted on social media by Mr Gilroy about the case had been brought to his attention.
The remarks allegedly made by Mr Gilroy in between the period the couple were in the Bridewell and the time they returned to court included describing the judge as “a satanic cult member” who in his decision to jail the couple had made the Irish Constitution “redundant”.
Mr Gilroy had also allegedly said the judge “had vacated his oath of office” and that maybe people should “use the defence of the Dwelling Act” and “just wait for anyone coming through the door and blow their heads off with a gun”.
The judge said the alleged comments could amount to criminal contempt and he directed Mr Gilroy to attend before the court later this week in respect of them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:17 am 
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An oldie but still a goodie ....and ne'er a one evicted from their home.....

Quote:

RUGBY players, RTE stars, musicians, judges and some of the country's senior legal professionals were among the people placed on a list of "sensitive" borrowers compiled by the former Anglo Irish Bank.

The Irish Independent has learnt that the High Profile Persons (HPP) review, presented to the board of Anglo on a quarterly basis after it was nationalised in 2009, also includes an outspoken TD, accountants, stockbrokers, developers and more than 60 prominent businessmen.

The almost exclusively male high-profile borrowers review -- also known as a "politically exposed persons" or PEP list -- includes up to 20 former Anglo staff members who had borrowed money from the bank.

One former rugby player had more than €50m in borrowings; and a senior counsel owed at least €30m to Anglo (now known as IBRC) before it was liquidated last year.

A number of senior UK businessmen owed almost €1bn to Anglo.



https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.indepen ... 87499.html

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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
An oldie but still a goodie ....and ne'er a one evicted from their home.....


That's an incredibly erroneous assumption to make.
Many lost their homes.
However, they did so without the Strokestown or O'Donnell fireworks, preferring a more quiet 'resolution'.

Not hearing or reading about someone losing their home does not mean it didn't happen.

For every O'Donnell who tried to fight the repossession every step of the way, you have far more who chose to slip quietly out the back door.

It's also important to highlight from your own link 'Many of the loans were performing -- where interest or capital was being repaid -- at the time the bank was liquidated.'.
The list were not people in arrears, but just high-profile borrowers.
Some were in arrears, many not. No precise breakdown was given.

Also, the method of sale was slightly different.
In co-operating with a bank, the borrower was often allowed stay in the house while it was for sale.
It gave the impression that the sale was voluntary and not forced, thereby saving face.


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Have to agree with Mr A. In addition many of these individuals did not have their houses up as collateral against the loans - the rich have ways to do this that lesser mortals do not. This is the thing we need to end - since the early 1980s the economic model that we have followed in the west has encouraged the privatisation of profits and the socialisation of losses - this is only to the benefit of the rich - the losses of the poor are still penalised - it leads to the concentration of wealth. The only way we can change this is to educate people to vote for politicians who do not believe in this model, and to educate the politicians who say they don't believe in it on how to change it (Eoin Ó Broin - are you listening? - in your review on a book on the housing crisis you talk about the 'thorny' problem of property taxes - it ain't thorny son - it is the only wealth tax that we have in this country and it's a great place to start taxing wealth - that's why the books authors mention it - you might have to eat a bit of humble pie and call it something else - but it is a neccessity, it's on the statute books and could be easily tweaked to satisfy most people on the left - everybody is scared to touch it because they know there's a bunch of people out there who want to portray it as the new water charges - all you are doing is keeping a bunch of very wealthy people very happy)

I think if we want to increase protection of PPRs we have to ban banks from using PPRs as collateral for loans taken out for business and investment purposes. Similarly for agricultural loans the loan will have to use land rather than PPRs as collateral. This would prove difficult for the banks as they seem to have great difficulty lending to a business based on the likelihood of the success of the business as this would require them to do some due diligence on the business plan rather than taking the lazy route of mortgaging the PPR - I refused a business loan when I was told the only way I could get it was to put up my PPR - I was already putting up 60% of the capital myself. Another beneficial side effect of this would be an end to borrow-to-let which has been this country's financial cancer.

In general what I hear from people working in the banks is that early engagement with the banks allowed many people to stay in their homes on plans that were ultimately beneficial to both parties. However I think it likely that some people engaged too early and did not benefit from the bounce - it's also possible they got bigger write-offs so maybe it balances out. People who didn't engage had their loans sold off to the debt collection agencies - this is standard practice in all lending - for most debts it goes 30, 60, 90 days - Debt Collection. For a PPR it will go longer as the bank often has other relationships with the customer. However if you mess with them they know they don't have the patience and/or the ability to deal with these kind of situations , they also don't want the kind of ugly publicity that these customers can raise. KBC knew that the Roscommon customer was going to be awkward - it seems strange (arrogant?) that they could believe that they could handle this themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:42 am 
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Well if you can't repo a PPR then banks aren't going to secure business loans with them in future, which means less credit for small businesses. That's just going to concentrate wealth further.

Debt enables social mobility. It's a force for social good. But you can't have debt without security, and security is worthless if you can't repo.

If I was running an Irish bank I'd be tempted to shut down rural lending and focus on the cities where this bullshit is less likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:59 pm 
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mr_anderson wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
An oldie but still a goodie ....and ne'er a one evicted from their home.....


That's an incredibly erroneous assumption to make.
Many lost their homes.
However, they did so without the Strokestown or O'Donnell fireworks, preferring a more quiet 'resolution'.

Not hearing or reading about someone losing their home does not mean it didn't happen.

For every O'Donnell who tried to fight the repossession every step of the way, you have far more who chose to slip quietly out the back door.

It's also important to highlight from your own link 'Many of the loans were performing -- where interest or capital was being repaid -- at the time the bank was liquidated.'.
The list were not people in arrears, but just high-profile borrowers.
Some were in arrears, many not. No precise breakdown was given.

Also, the method of sale was slightly different.
In co-operating with a bank, the borrower was often allowed stay in the house while it was for sale.
It gave the impression that the sale was voluntary and not forced, thereby saving face.


It's kind of an a priori thing - the only reason to set up a HPP unit is to treat borrowers in the HPP unit differently to others. You seem to be saying that because of their profile they'll want to save face and co-operate. That might be the case for some. But this is Ireland. It's equally or more likely that they're grouped to get preferential treatment and just a general higher level of understanding


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Joined: Apr 2, 2008
Posts: 2054
Location: Cork and Kerry
mr_anderson wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
An oldie but still a goodie ....and ne'er a one evicted from their home.....


That's an incredibly erroneous assumption to make.
Many lost their homes.
However, they did so without the Strokestown or O'Donnell fireworks, preferring a more quiet 'resolution'.

Not hearing or reading about someone losing their home does not mean it didn't happen.

For every O'Donnell who tried to fight the repossession every step of the way, you have far more who chose to slip quietly out the back door.

It's also important to highlight from your own link 'Many of the loans were performing -- where interest or capital was being repaid -- at the time the bank was liquidated.'.
The list were not people in arrears, but just high-profile borrowers.
Some were in arrears, many not. No precise breakdown was given.

Also, the method of sale was slightly different.
In co-operating with a bank, the borrower was often allowed stay in the house while it was for sale.
It gave the impression that the sale was voluntary and not forced, thereby saving face.



I don't accept all of what you say here Mr. Anderson.
I really don't.

Quote:
For every O'Donnell who tried to fight the repossession every step of the way, you have far more who chose to slip quietly out the back door.

We don't really have proof of this either way since the information is privileged, private and confidential in the way that all special deals done in Ireland are.
This is why it's not really possible to make this statement without a full detail of the facts.
I think that you recognize the importance of this yourself when you indicate that "No precise breakdown was given."

But here is what we do know, that essentially goes to the heart of the matter of the flaws in the Irish system of financial justice,
1. Private Institutions got access to write laws and get them pushed through, using powers of fear and intimidation, the Bank Bailout legislation.
2. Private Developers got paid large, social welfare style handouts, 125,000 Euros per year or thereabouts, to maintain "management" of their failed developer businesses. This law was written for them by their political cronies.
3. Little action from a legal point of view has been taken against the ringleaders of the Planning corruption that was discovered by the Mahon Tribunal. Why not?

All of this is really very Irish but it is playing straight into the hands of more unwelcome sorts that would "take the law into their own hands", but sure why wouldn't they since that's how the Government have operated in this country for nearly forever.

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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 pm 
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wii4miinow wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
For every O'Donnell who tried to fight the repossession every step of the way, you have far more who chose to slip quietly out the back door.

We don't really have proof of this either way since the information is privileged, private and confidential in the way that all special deals done in Ireland are.
This is why it's not really possible to make this statement without a full detail of the facts.
I think that you recognize the importance of this yourself when you indicate that "No precise breakdown was given."

I'm not able to dig them out right now on but I'm pretty sure there are published statistics about which show that voluntary surrenders outnumber possession orders by a substantial amount. And that wouldn't even capture the agreed sales.


wii4miinow wrote:
But here is what we do know, that essentially goes to the heart of the matter of the flaws in the Irish system of financial justice,
1. Private Institutions got access to write laws and get them pushed through, using powers of fear and intimidation, the Bank Bailout legislation.

What legislation specifically and which private institutions got to write these laws? It seems odd, if we're talking about the banks, that we've still got one of the most borrower friendly repossession regimes in Europe?


wii4miinow wrote:
2. Private Developers got paid large, social welfare style handouts, 125,000 Euros per year or thereabouts, to maintain "management" of their failed developer businesses. This law was written for them by their political cronies.

This was done for some developers and not others, ostensibly in the basis of whether they cooperated with NAMA or not, but probably there was some cronyism involved too. It wasn't based on any legislation that I'm aware of? What legislation are you referring to?


wii4miinow wrote:
3. Little action from a legal point of view has been taken against the ringleaders of the Planning corruption that was discovered by the Mahon Tribunal. Why not?

Yes, and that is shameful.


wii4miinow wrote:
All of this is really very Irish but it is playing straight into the hands of more unwelcome sorts that would "take the law into their own hands", but sure why wouldn't they since that's how the Government have operated in this country for nearly forever.
But a lot of that is driven by perception rather than reality. The banks apparently "got away scot free" according to those who advocate vigilante resistance but bank shareholders who lost huge chunks of their savings might disagree with that analysis.

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