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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:46 pm 
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The liquidator of IBRC (formerly Anglo&INBS) gave a report a few weeks ago.

They have brought €21bn of loans by value to market in the last five years.

This seems to have gone better than expected, as unsecured creditors (including the state) will be in receipt of funds they didn't expect to get in 2013.

The simple fact is that many of the high-profile borrowers were likely performing (at a push), especially given the very strong increase since 2014 in Irish rents, particularly commercial.

Regarding Nama, the sad fact is that very big borrowers never lose their shirt, in Ireland or anywhere else. Even if these loans had stayed on the books of the big banks, and they had been pushed into liquidation, the borrowers (mainly developers) would have remained on large fees in order to maintain good relationships with clients and staff.

Is this one law for the rich and one for the poor? Yes, but there is not much that can be done about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
Regarding Nama, the sad fact is that very big borrowers never lose their shirt, in Ireland or anywhere else. Even if these loans had stayed on the books of the big banks, and they had been pushed into liquidation, the borrowers (mainly developers) would have remained on large fees in order to maintain good relationships with clients and staff.

Is this one law for the rich and one for the poor? Yes, but there is not much that can be done about it.


We should never have to accept graft as a fact of life. We all know it is endemic, but society should try to make some attempts to address it. Racism, dependence on charitable acts and extreme poverty where once considered a fact of life, and the norm. Until some civic leaders refused to accept that way of thinking, be that the civil rights activists of the 60s or the Attlee government of the 40s.

Sadly we are badly lacking in such leadership in the politics of today. Being kettled as we are into various trifles of little real consequence.

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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Limited liability has been woven deeply into the fabric of modern capitalism ever since (I think) the invention of the joint stock company. This seems to be ignored or misunderstood in the public commentary on the Irish crash. Property developers "getting away with it" is capitalism working as designed. Individual companies are supposed to be able to fail harmlessly, with labour and assets redistributed in the economy.

Despite improvements to macroprudential regulation which will probably prevent an exact repeat of the previous crash, the country is really not much more robust to shocks than it was last time round. At least in the last crash there were bad guys to point fingers at. I think Ireland has recovered partly because there was an obvious target for the rage.

If the next crash is caused by a collapse in corporation tax revenues (currently around €9bn a year, heading towards 20% of total tax take, compared to something like 7% in a normal economy), who will be to blame then?

Undirected rage causes societal malaise.

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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
The liquidator of IBRC (formerly Anglo&INBS) gave a report a few weeks ago.

They have brought €21bn of loans by value to market in the last five years.

This seems to have gone better than expected, as unsecured creditors (including the state) will be in receipt of funds they didn't expect to get in 2013.

The simple fact is that many of the high-profile borrowers were likely performing (at a push), especially given the very strong increase since 2014 in Irish rents, particularly commercial.

Regarding Nama, the sad fact is that very big borrowers never lose their shirt, in Ireland or anywhere else. Even if these loans had stayed on the books of the big banks, and they had been pushed into liquidation, the borrowers (mainly developers) would have remained on large fees in order to maintain good relationships with clients and staff.

Is this one law for the rich and one for the poor? Yes, but there is not much that can be done about it.


Leaving aside its life before Drumm left, It's actually comical that you would cite the nationalisation and then liquidation of IBRC as anything other than a debacle. The central debacle trumps any and all realisation efforts. There was 31 billion injected to cover loan losses (and whatever else). The citizenry have NO IDEA how that was applied against the loan book on an item by item basis.
How many frauds and lost documents hidden in the 31 billion ? No idea.
How many write offs and to whom ? No idea


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:53 pm 
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@gameblame I very clearly mentioned the liquidation of IBRC (starting 2013), not the guarantee and nationalisation of Anglo&INBS, (2008-2013). You're right that no one knows what kind of write-downs or treatment the borrowers got. But that's banking. Loans go bad all the time, and the details are kept private. Public sector bodies don't routinely reveal the details of commercial contracts, or the treatment of when they write off bad debts from creditors gone bad. This is why you have various levels of oversight including external audit, but there is no magic spreadsheet anywhere where it all gets publicised. In fact the Strokestown case is interesting too - this wasn't a state bank, and the sums involved were trivial, but even then what is striking is how little the jouranlists were able to find that was in the public domain.

@epicurus I have no doubt there was graft at certain points in the bank bailout and subsequent treatment of borrowers. The issue is as to whether it was graft on a grand scale. I guess that's a matter of opinion (I don't think so_, but if it is maybe talk to the various majorities of TDs who voted through all the policies at different points.


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:43 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
An oldie but still a goodie ....and ne'er a one evicted from their home.....


That's an incredibly erroneous assumption to make.
Many lost their homes.
However, they did so without the Strokestown or O'Donnell fireworks, preferring a more quiet 'resolution'.

Not hearing or reading about someone losing their home does not mean it didn't happen.

For every O'Donnell who tried to fight the repossession every step of the way, you have far more who chose to slip quietly out the back door.

It's also important to highlight from your own link 'Many of the loans were performing -- where interest or capital was being repaid -- at the time the bank was liquidated.'.
The list were not people in arrears, but just high-profile borrowers.
Some were in arrears, many not. No precise breakdown was given.

Also, the method of sale was slightly different.
In co-operating with a bank, the borrower was often allowed stay in the house while it was for sale.
It gave the impression that the sale was voluntary and not forced, thereby saving face.


It's kind of an a priori thing - the only reason to set up a HPP unit is to treat borrowers in the HPP unit differently to others. You seem to be saying that because of their profile they'll want to save face and co-operate. That might be the case for some. But this is Ireland. It's equally or more likely that they're grouped to get preferential treatment and just a general higher level of understanding

Rubbish - a PEP list is a regulatory requirement for all financial entities in Europe.


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Luan wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
An oldie but still a goodie ....and ne'er a one evicted from their home.....


That's an incredibly erroneous assumption to make.
Many lost their homes.
However, they did so without the Strokestown or O'Donnell fireworks, preferring a more quiet 'resolution'.

Not hearing or reading about someone losing their home does not mean it didn't happen.

For every O'Donnell who tried to fight the repossession every step of the way, you have far more who chose to slip quietly out the back door.

It's also important to highlight from your own link 'Many of the loans were performing -- where interest or capital was being repaid -- at the time the bank was liquidated.'.
The list were not people in arrears, but just high-profile borrowers.
Some were in arrears, many not. No precise breakdown was given.

Also, the method of sale was slightly different.
In co-operating with a bank, the borrower was often allowed stay in the house while it was for sale.
It gave the impression that the sale was voluntary and not forced, thereby saving face.


It's kind of an a priori thing - the only reason to set up a HPP unit is to treat borrowers in the HPP unit differently to others. You seem to be saying that because of their profile they'll want to save face and co-operate. That might be the case for some. But this is Ireland. It's equally or more likely that they're grouped to get preferential treatment and just a general higher level of understanding

Rubbish - a PEP list is a regulatory requirement for all financial entities in Europe.


You think Rugby players and celebrities get separated out in a French bank report to its central bank ?
Rubbish


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
@gameblame I very clearly mentioned the liquidation of IBRC (starting 2013), not the guarantee and nationalisation of Anglo&INBS, (2008-2013). You're right that no one knows what kind of write-downs or treatment the borrowers got. But that's banking. Loans go bad all the time, and the details are kept private. Public sector bodies don't routinely reveal the details of commercial contracts, or the treatment of when they write off bad debts from creditors gone bad. This is why you have various levels of oversight including external audit, but there is no magic spreadsheet anywhere where it all gets publicised. In fact the Strokestown case is interesting too - this wasn't a state bank, and the sums involved were trivial, but even then what is striking is how little the jouranlists were able to find that was in the public domain.

@epicurus I have no doubt there was graft at certain points in the bank bailout and subsequent treatment of borrowers. The issue is as to whether it was graft on a grand scale. I guess that's a matter of opinion (I don't think so_, but if it is maybe talk to the various majorities of TDs who voted through all the policies at different points.


We're talking about 31 BILLION here. Not bad debt write offs in the rates department of a county council. I don't think there is external audit of IBRC btw.

There are plenty of ways that transparency could have been injected into the process. Very little of what went on post 2008 there could be described as "that's banking". If you set up an ideas thread here you'd get 10 good legal ideas. The only reasonable conclusion as to why there was no transparency designed into this is that transparency wasn't wanted.


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Mar 17, 2008
Posts: 1006
Luan wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
.......

Rubbish - a PEP list is a regulatory requirement for all financial entities in Europe.


Not true - there are guidelines on identifying PEPs as part of the Know Your Customer and Anti-Money Laundering regulations and it is advised that Financial Institutions should be aware of such persons - however there has never been as far as I know (and I worked with banks for many years and until very recently) any regulation relating to this - I suspect that this is because it is very difficult to define a PEP in a way that is sufficiently rigorous to put it into a regulation.


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 Post subject: Re: Eviction turns to violence in Strokestown Co. Roscommon
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:30 am 
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GameBlame wrote:
We're talking about 31 BILLION here. Not bad debt write offs in the rates department of a county council. I don't think there is external audit of IBRC btw.

There are plenty of ways that transparency could have been injected into the process. Very little of what went on post 2008 there could be described as "that's banking". If you set up an ideas thread here you'd get 10 good legal ideas. The only reasonable conclusion as to why there was no transparency designed into this is that transparency wasn't wanted.


I was quite clearly talking about the resolution of IBRC since 2013, which has only meant revenue for the state, not expenditure.


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